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Human-machine interaction has been really taking off with products like the Wii and Microsoft's Kinect in which a handheld controller lets the user control onscreen objects with just the movement of his hands. But there's still something missing, and that's the actual capturing of finger motion in 3D space, which would allow the user to perform high-resolution, grab-select-move manipulation. Imagine reaching into the displayed 3D space and picking up tiny, individual objects with your fingers and precisely manipulating them.

I've come up with an idea as to how that could be accomplished, in a fairly simple and straightforward approach. I haven't come across anything like it in my searches of the Internet in general and the U.S. Patent Office web site in particular. So I think it's unique.

The problem: What do I do with it? Should I go through the expense and time of full development and patenting? Should I try to sell the idea directly to Microsoft or Sony or Nintendo? Is there anyone out there who knows how to take something like this from concept to product?

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Aloha Roger,

To solve this, the finger tips must be mapped to 3D coordinates. This requires a signal from each finger tip to probably three sensors so the sensors can triangulate onto the location of each finger. The most convenient signal is the image itself, and the sensors are cameras, but a fair amount of image processing is required to make this work. Less convenient but simple and cheap would be gloves with a light source, such as a tiny LED, in each finger tip. There are sensors that are cheap, fast and accurate such that minimal processing would be required to map positions to 3D. The LEDs could be color coded to reduce any ambiguity about which fingers are involved.

Ideas are cheap. I just made up the above, and I give it away freely. Taking an idea and turning it into a business is where the work is. If your "fairly simple and straightforward approach" is better, cheaper, faster, then maybe you should do something with it. You can try for a patent and do the work yourself, but if your idea is really "fairly simple and straightforward", your odds for a patent are small. Still, with "patent pending", and a little more work specifying all the details, you might have something you could sell, but you probably need an agent who can make the right calls to the right people.
Don Gilmore said:

Ideas are cheap.

Apparently I was under the mistaken impression that TechHui in general and the Tech Entrepreneurs group in particular is a place where ideas can be discussed and advice sought. Instead, it seems to be a place where the concept is that ideas are cheap and not worth the effort to pursue. I guess innovation and the entrepreneurial spirit is not supported here. And I suppose the fact that there is currently no commercial product like this is irrelevant.
Roger

I've used both glove and video based hand tracking systems. Some video tracking use markers attached to the hand/fingers/body. These may be passive (reflective balls) or active (code flashing leds). Glove trackers often have a 3 space tracker attached to the wrist and bend sensors running down the fingers.

A decade or so ago, I was writing the TechReview column for VRNews magazine. Links for my Nav & gesture article are still up at http://vr.isdale.com/NavGesture_Links.html although many of them are probably way out of date. The article was online but seems to be awol now. I'm going to have to dig em out of archives someday.

There are some projects that do video based hand tracking without any augmentation (given sufficient light). One open source project is HandVu, by Mathias Kolsch. Mathias was an intern for me when he was a PhD candidate. Now he is a professor at Naval Post Grad School in Monterey CA. http://www.movesinstitute.org/~kolsch/HandVu/HandVu.html

I'd be willing to chat about this if you want. Non-disclosure could be ok.
You should really file for patent protection first, even before approaching a group of investors. Technology devices typically consist of many patents (eg. the iPhone has 300+ patents protecting it) so you want to be sure that your device is actually patentable or if only some of it is (it violates patents on the Wii, etc.).

Building a working prototype is also another good way to figure out the bugs in your design and may clarify exactly what you intend on patenting. Who knows - you may hold the patent to what some mega manufacturer is looking for and could pay you well for the rights to it!
Aloha e Roger,

Thought I'd add my .00002 cents. Although Don's comments might come off a bit harsh. So is reality. It's extremely hard to fully develop a new product, take it to market, and get to that acquisition. That being said, if you're passionate about this idea, have done your market research, and believe that you've got something truly unique and game changing in nature then you ought to give it a go. Being in business for yourself, can be a tremendously rewarding experience, but it's a roller coaster ride that may or may not end in bloody carnage.

From our last board meeting, "What would a roller coaster be without the screaming?" hahaha it was a bad joke then, I'm not sure it's any better here.

I would say that these things always take longer than you think, are orders of magnitude harder, and in many instances end poorly. Those that make it, do it on a tremendous amount of hard work, timing, and luck.

Perfect Search, the company I'm with has developed a unique indexing and search technology that is orders of magnitude, faster, more precise, and powerful, than even our closest competitors. Add to that, that we achieve this, on about 90% less hardware than anyone else. This is a multi billion dollar game changing technology. In terms of energy cost savings alone, we could save a company like Google or Microsoft over a billion dollars on a yearly basis, and that's not taking into consideration where and how this could be deployed in revenue generating opportunities.

All that being said, we were incorporated in 2007 and are only now in a position to be going after revenue. Some naively thought that on the basis of this fantastic idea and prototype we could sell to a large company for a strong profit, and be in and out in 18 months. NOT SO. To get the kind of acquisition we want we're fully developing the product, forming strategic alliances with key partners, going after sales (OEM, Direct, and through resellers). I wouldn't trade the experiences I've had for just about anything, and it has been far more rewarding on a professional level than anything else I've been involved with, but it has also been much much harder.

We're now in talks with Oracle, have tech guys in Redmond today talking with various groups within Microsoft, and are likewise in the IBM labs, but this is after being in business for 3 years, and some key installations/clients.

I believe we're going to make something happen here, and that we will get to do some great things with this company, but this work is hard, and not for the weak of heart. . . what's a roller coaster ride without some screaming???

If you move forward with the idea, there will be plenty of people ready to offer advice. Mine would simply be, that if this is the idea you believe it is, then go for it, hang on for the ride, and remember that the screaming is all part of the fun. hahaha still not funny. . .
I re-read my reply. I stand by it. I was helpful, I discussed your idea in some detail, even gave away some possibly useful refinements, which would have been more specific had you actually hinted at a solution. I gave away a simple solution so you could do a quick reality check on how unique your solution is. I suggested you seek patent protection if your idea is better than my obvious solution.

Do a google search for "ideas are cheap" (~30,000 hits) and look for what some top venture capitalists say. Typical example:

"Want a good idea? Here’s 30 great ones that Paul Graham wants to fund. Why would Paul Graham just give away 30 great ideas for free? Because the value of a business is not in the idea. In an early stage company, the value is in the people involved."

Your problem, what to do with your idea, how to take it from concept to product, is the crux of every startup. I just wanted to make sure you were not over-estimating the value of an idea, nor under-estimating the remaining work.




Roger Garrett said:
Don Gilmore said:

Ideas are cheap.

Apparently I was under the mistaken impression that TechHui in general and the Tech Entrepreneurs group in particular is a place where ideas can be discussed and advice sought. Instead, it seems to be a place where the concept is that ideas are cheap and not worth the effort to pursue. I guess innovation and the entrepreneurial spirit is not supported here. And I suppose the fact that there is currently no commercial product like this is irrelevant.
Patent protection can be good, but also expensive to get both in time and $$. I just heard I got one that was filed back in 2006. It was assigned to the company I worked for at the time so other than a line on the resume, it doesnt get me much.
A patent also does not protect you from having people steal your idea. You have to be willing and able ($$$) to fight infringement. You also need to do background searching to be sure your idea is not infringing on someone elses patent (which may be in-process and you wouldnt know about it). There has been a lot of work done on hand tracking over the last 20+ years.

Creating a working prototype is a viable approach. It gives you something to show to VC, etc. The process can also help you eliminate parts that dont work, so you dont wind up patenting something useless. Others may look at the patent, figure out whats wrong, and come up with a non-infringing but working alternative.
Agreed. Patents can be costly and long in coming, but can play an important role in IP protection. A strategy that we've employed that may make some sense in sharing has been that, while we've patented pieces of what we do and have more patents that will come from our technology, some of what we do we've kept as trade secrets. I believe that this combination allows us, in our case to be more protected.

Maybe that's beneficial to you in your situation, maybe not, but I believe it can be a sound strategy.

Also agree to your comment about still needing the capital to fight litigation in the event of copyright infringement. It's a rough rough world out there, and many don't play fair.

A hui hou, a e malama pono ia kakou!



Jerry Isdale said:
Patent protection can be good, but also expensive to get both in time and $$. I just heard I got one that was filed back in 2006. It was assigned to the company I worked for at the time so other than a line on the resume, it doesnt get me much.
A patent also does not protect you from having people steal your idea. You have to be willing and able ($$$) to fight infringement. You also need to do background searching to be sure your idea is not infringing on someone elses patent (which may be in-process and you wouldnt know about it). There has been a lot of work done on hand tracking over the last 20+ years.

Creating a working prototype is a viable approach. It gives you something to show to VC, etc. The process can also help you eliminate parts that dont work, so you dont wind up patenting something useless. Others may look at the patent, figure out whats wrong, and come up with a non-infringing but working alternative.
Agreed; a patent is merely a license go to court. My suggestion was to file a do-it-yourself patent so he could claim "patent pending", thereby adding some value and credibility to his idea, and having something more specific around which to take the next steps. Discussing the idea and refining it would add value. Building a proof-of-concept prototype would be more valuable. Recruiting some good people and getting some angel capital would be even more valuable.

Jerry Isdale said:
Patent protection can be good, but also expensive to get both in time and $$. I just heard I got one that was filed back in 2006. It was assigned to the company I worked for at the time so other than a line on the resume, it doesnt get me much.
A patent also does not protect you from having people steal your idea. You have to be willing and able ($$$) to fight infringement. You also need to do background searching to be sure your idea is not infringing on someone elses patent (which may be in-process and you wouldnt know about it). There has been a lot of work done on hand tracking over the last 20+ years.

Creating a working prototype is a viable approach. It gives you something to show to VC, etc. The process can also help you eliminate parts that dont work, so you dont wind up patenting something useless. Others may look at the patent, figure out whats wrong, and come up with a non-infringing but working alternative.

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