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Craigslist and the $12 per hour standard for freelance projects in Hawaii.

I recently checked out Craigslist Hawaii in the info/web design section to see if any interesting companies were looking for people or if there were ads for interesting freelance projects. Amazingly, several ads were looking for a "student" or intern to manage a business web project or program Flash, Flex HTML, XML, and on and on and on ....for $12 per hour.
In contrast, there was an admin assistant job posted that payed $15 per hour and they hoped the candidates graduated from high school.
Reality disconnect?

The most amusing was an ad from a local business asking for designers, in shotgun fashion, to "make us a webpage and we'll select the best one and pay them". Work on spec, no client contact for input or content? amazing.

Bottom line, if you do freelance work craigslist Hawaii is probably not a good resource unless you're a student.

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Hi Keven,

I take it you were the one who recently replied to one of the job postings on Cragislist. I saw that thread and I'm totally with you. If I hired a $15 per/hour intern at a web company I wouldn't expect their level of proficiency in web development to be anything above beginner or average.

I'm also with you. I'm incredibly against speculative deals. It doesn't help our profession and it actually doesn't help the client.

Craigslist is definitely not a good source for web design or web app dev leads in Hawaii. A great site with good SEO will produce some good leads, but the best way is to network, network, network.

No serious designer or programmer works on spec. As for $12/hour work, well, you generally get what you pay for :-)
I appreciate all the discussion offered here-- of course craigslist is a total waste of time for actual leads (at least in Hawaii--the SF version is another matter entirely) but its a great place when you need some primal scream therapy or a good laugh. I guess that was the point of my original post.
I will add even if you are a student craigslist is filled with scams!

Well maybe not scams if you would to create a website for $10/hour, but then they will only pay once they see you can actually do it. I was desperate enough for money to answer once, sad it is true:(

did not find out until I got there that is was $10/hour. The meeting lasted about 2 minutes I laughed, then I left.

I would warn everybody to stay away from craigslist.

In general I found that they were looking for expert web designs/developers but wanted to pay you like it was a job at resteraunt! In general you get what you pay for, if you only pay people $10/hour for a website, it will come out poorly, as nobody in their right mind would do this for such a little amount of money.
Here's another one:

(copied/pasted in case it goes away):

-------
Looking for a Matlab tutor to help with a two week project, assisting in writing pseudo code and in implementation. Pay is $50 for the two weeks, and tutoring time should be limited to three meetings. Please let me know your experience with matlab and tutoring, thanks!
-------
The sad truth of the matter is that Craigslist postings are a barometer for the value of web and multimedia design in Hawaii. It all starts with the educators. Schools (high schools and colleges) are churning out multimedia designers and unleashing them, a lot of them half baked, into the real world.

Case in point, I spoke with a local high school teacher who had a student come back from summer break excited to talk about his summer job. He built a website for a medium sized insurance company for $200.

No one is teaching these up and coming designers any level of business skills. No one is teaching the importance of networking and not undercutting. These students are competing with existing companies and the only way they can do it is to work for pennies. The initial thought being that they just need a foot in the door. What they don't see is that by undercutting the industry, that's all they or anyone will get paid and you can't live or run a company by making $200 websites.

The professionals in the industry understand the value of going to a professional, the average business doesn't. They don't understand the real work that goes into a website or a graphic design. They will go with the cheapest person and assume that everyone else is a rip off. In general, the multimedia industry needs to get involved in education and make sure the educators and students coming out are not just programmers and artists but commercial programmers and artists.
Definitely our public school system could use partnerships with local Tech businesses/multimedia companies.  Tech teachers in the schools are trying their best, but are definitely not industry experts.  I would say especially students who are completing senior projects to attain the Board of Ed. Diploma (instead of the regular high school diploma) could use industry experts to provide quality mentorship, guidance, and career exposure.  As a senior project judge, I would also say the rigor of the projects could be improved.  Of course this would entail a time commitment from Tech businesses/entities/designers/programmers.  The kids are certainly there in school & not going anywhere until graduation!  Let me know if you are interested in partnering with a public high school in the Leeward District.
JP

Russ Ogi said:
The sad truth of the matter is that Craigslist postings are a barometer for the value of web and multimedia design in Hawaii. It all starts with the educators. Schools (high schools and colleges) are churning out multimedia designers and unleashing them, a lot of them half baked, into the real world. Case in point, I spoke with a local high school teacher who had a student come back from summer break excited to talk about his summer job. He built a website for a medium sized insurance company for $200.

No one is teaching these up and coming designers any level of business skills. No one is teaching the importance of networking and not undercutting. These students are competing with existing companies and the only way they can do it is to work for pennies. The initial thought being that they just need a foot in the door. What they don't see is that by undercutting the industry, that's all they or anyone will get paid and you can't live or run a company by making $200 websites.

The professionals in the industry understand the value of going to a professional, the average business doesn't. They don't understand the real work that goes into a website or a graphic design. They will go with the cheapest person and assume that everyone else is a rip off. In general, the multimedia industry needs to get involved in education and make sure the educators and students coming out are not just programmers and artists but commercial programmers and artists.

ROFL! McDonalds pays much better for two weeks of work and I don't think they require Matlab or programming skills :-)

Nate Sanders said:

Here's another one:

(copied/pasted in case it goes away):

-------
Looking for a Matlab tutor to help with a two week project, assisting in writing pseudo code and in implementation. Pay is $50 for the two weeks, and tutoring time should be limited to three meetings. Please let me know your experience with matlab and tutoring, thanks!
-------

If each of the meeting is five minutes each, then it isn't such a bad deal...

Nate Sanders said:

Here's another one:

(copied/pasted in case it goes away):

-------
Looking for a Matlab tutor to help with a two week project, assisting in writing pseudo code and in implementation. Pay is $50 for the two weeks, and tutoring time should be limited to three meetings. Please let me know your experience with matlab and tutoring, thanks!
-------

It's good to see that my old post still has legs and an active discussion among us techies.

 

Unfortunately, the Craigslist situation in Hawaii is more of a scam-a-thon than ever on both sides and that isn't going to change unless we rally as a profession and help people understand that they are in a partnership and the web people can actually collaborate with them to settle on good design, UI and functionality.

 

But it ain't free and hiring a student that's still wet behind the ears to manage a big project is a shortsighted business decision--but people never cease to make shortsighted decisions. Personally, I'd never hire an architectural student or intern to build my house. I want a seasoned professional at the helm of the design/build process to make sure everything works as designed and problems can be resolved.

There's a mantra that is always repeat to myself when I'm with a client that's getting fussy or a potential client that is in the Craigslist "I want everything for free" category.

 

My silent mantra:

 

You can have it done fast, right or cheap. Pick two. You will never get all three.

Most people want fast and cheap.

 

Doing it right is what we should strive for as an industry and encourage our clients, or potential clients to think along those lines. It doesn't have to be expensive, just proportional to the scope of a project.

Totally agree with that.  There was another quote I read somewhere: "No deal is better than a bad deal."  Very true.  Whenever I've taken a bad deal, later I'd kick myself for accepting.

Kevin Luttrell said

My silent mantra:

 

You can have it done fast, right or cheap. Pick two. You will never get all three.

Most people want fast and cheap.

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