What's a programmer for? - TechHui2024-03-29T09:04:05Zhttp://www.techhui.com/forum/topics/whats-a-programmer-for?commentId=1702911%3AComment%3A45131&feed=yes&xn_auth=noRoger, please contact me.
Ke…tag:www.techhui.com,2009-06-24:1702911:Comment:451362009-06-24T05:02:31.287ZKen Berkunhttp://www.techhui.com/profile/KenBerkun
Roger, please contact me.<br />
<br />
Ken Berkun: berkun@LTTaloha.com. Our needs are kind of specific, but if you hit them, then I want you!<br />
Ken<br />
<br />
PS - I've often wondered: Just how many programmers ARE there in Hawaii?<br />
<br />
<cite>Roger Garrett said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.techhui.com/forum/topics/whats-a-programmer-for?page=2&commentId=1702911%3AComment%3A45131&x=1#1702911Comment45131"><div>Jimen,<br></br> <br></br> Very good point.<br></br>
<br></br>
In the case of the test I was asked to take,…</div>
</blockquote>
Roger, please contact me.<br />
<br />
Ken Berkun: berkun@LTTaloha.com. Our needs are kind of specific, but if you hit them, then I want you!<br />
Ken<br />
<br />
PS - I've often wondered: Just how many programmers ARE there in Hawaii?<br />
<br />
<cite>Roger Garrett said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.techhui.com/forum/topics/whats-a-programmer-for?page=2&commentId=1702911%3AComment%3A45131&x=1#1702911Comment45131"><div>Jimen,<br/> <br/>
Very good point.<br/>
<br/>
In the case of the test I was asked to take, reportedly to test my understanding of C++, it had practically no C++ in it, but rather plain old C. There were only two people in the company (yet another startup), and my gut feeling was that the young software fellow was the one who wrote the test, and the questions sure looked a lot like something you might get in a test in a high school or college programming course, just to make sure you remember the particular details of what was taught during the prior week. It was not at all a well thought out test and I can't imagine how they could deduce anything from it as far as my overall development and design skills.<br/>
<br/>
Also, as far as tests being used to weed out the bad programmers from the good programmers (generally by the HR departmet) so that the real decisin makers dont have to waste time actually interviewing people who clearly won't make the cut, I'd have to ask: "How many programmers can there actually <u>be</u> here in Hawaii?" If every single one of them showed up for an interview, how much time would it actually take to go through them and find the perfect match for the company? :)<br/>
<br/>
And one last thought: If anyone actually does know of a company looking for an experienced (thirty five years!) C++, MFC, application development software engineer who really enjoys the GUI part of a project, let me know !<br/>
<br/>
- Roger</div>
</blockquote> Jimen,
Very good point.
In…tag:www.techhui.com,2009-06-24:1702911:Comment:451312009-06-24T04:34:18.447ZRoger Garretthttp://www.techhui.com/profile/RogerGarrett
Jimen,<br />
<br />
Very good point.<br />
<br />
In the case of the test I was asked to take, reportedly to test my understanding of C++, it had practically no C++ in it, but rather plain old C. There were only two people in the company (yet another startup), and my gut feeling was that the young software fellow was the one who wrote the test, and the questions sure looked a lot like something you might get in a test in a high school or college programming course, just to make sure you remember the particular details…
Jimen,<br />
<br />
Very good point.<br />
<br />
In the case of the test I was asked to take, reportedly to test my understanding of C++, it had practically no C++ in it, but rather plain old C. There were only two people in the company (yet another startup), and my gut feeling was that the young software fellow was the one who wrote the test, and the questions sure looked a lot like something you might get in a test in a high school or college programming course, just to make sure you remember the particular details of what was taught during the prior week. It was not at all a well thought out test and I can't imagine how they could deduce anything from it as far as my overall development and design skills.<br />
<br />
Also, as far as tests being used to weed out the bad programmers from the good programmers (generally by the HR departmet) so that the real decisin makers dont have to waste time actually interviewing people who clearly won't make the cut, I'd have to ask: "How many programmers can there actually <u>be</u> here in Hawaii?" If every single one of them showed up for an interview, how much time would it actually take to go through them and find the perfect match for the company? :)<br />
<br />
And one last thought: If anyone actually does know of a company looking for an experienced (thirty five years!) C++, MFC, application development software engineer who really enjoys the GUI part of a project, let me know !<br />
<br />
- Roger Brian Russo said:I think test…tag:www.techhui.com,2009-06-24:1702911:Comment:451222009-06-24T03:11:58.259ZJimen Chinghttp://www.techhui.com/profile/JimenChing
<cite>Brian Russo said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.techhui.com/forum/topics/whats-a-programmer-for#1702911Comment44988">I think tests are silly in the sense that they don't really test much; you can't ask anyone to do anything worthwhile in a short period. Perhaps sending a code sample or some sort of code review makes more sense.</blockquote>
<br />
I agree here. Any good code or code review takes time. But I've used to work in a company that does give programming tests. I can tell you that…
<cite>Brian Russo said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.techhui.com/forum/topics/whats-a-programmer-for#1702911Comment44988">I think tests are silly in the sense that they don't really test much; you can't ask anyone to do anything worthwhile in a short period. Perhaps sending a code sample or some sort of code review makes more sense.</blockquote>
<br />
I agree here. Any good code or code review takes time. But I've used to work in a company that does give programming tests. I can tell you that these tests aren't trying to determine if you know a 'for' loop. The tests are usually designed to determine something very specific. Of course, each company is testing for different things.<br />
<br />
It is my opinion that these tests aren't trying to determine your knowledge of general programming, but rather to test whether you will fall into the company's fold for programming philosophy. I.e. if the company uses a lot of multiple inheritance, then they will create tests to see if and how you handle these programming paradigms.<br />
<br />
Of course, I still don't believe in these tests though. Anyone who can code it, can discuss it verbally. As for entry level positions, these tests are still useless. Since I'm going to do code reviews anyway, knowing whether they can read/write code is not useful. I rather they understand the programming concepts. If they understand the programming concepts and good programming techniques, then teaching them a new language or how to effectively use a language they already know would be very easy.<br />
<br />
Given the choice between a candidate who practices good programming techniques, but not familiar with a language vs. a candidate who doesn't use good programming techniques but knows the language inside out, I would choose the former. Teaching someone a language is easy. Trying to get someone to change their bad programming practices isn't.<br />
<br />
--jc When somebody is asking you t…tag:www.techhui.com,2009-06-23:1702911:Comment:450652009-06-23T22:40:33.227ZGabe Morrishttp://www.techhui.com/profile/GabeMorris
When somebody is asking you to work for equity, they should have to prove themselves to you as much as if they were approaching a VC for funding.<br />
<br />
To quote software developer <a href="http://www.dynamicalsoftware.com/about.html">Glenn Engstrand</a>:<br />
<br />
"Most customers think that what they are paying for is<br />
software because that is what they need to advance the strategic goals<br />
of their business. This is true. However, good software development is<br />
a factory that cranks out decisions. A lot of…
When somebody is asking you to work for equity, they should have to prove themselves to you as much as if they were approaching a VC for funding.<br />
<br />
To quote software developer <a href="http://www.dynamicalsoftware.com/about.html">Glenn Engstrand</a>:<br />
<br />
"Most customers think that what they are paying for is<br />
software because that is what they need to advance the strategic goals<br />
of their business. This is true. However, good software development is<br />
a factory that cranks out decisions. A lot of decisions get made in<br />
the software development process."<br />
<br />
And now from the company that advertised the post:<br />
"we are not inviting input or commentary from any potential programmers"<br />
<br />
If they plan to build their product in this manner, they will probably wind up with something weaker than otherwise possible.<br />
<br />
In any event, it's all a little bizarre since this company seems to be confusing your valid request for information with you giving them advice. I wouldn't be too offended by…tag:www.techhui.com,2009-06-22:1702911:Comment:449452009-06-22T20:46:08.230ZShawn Drosthttp://www.techhui.com/profile/ShawnDrost
I wouldn't be too offended by the test. That type of thing is designed to weed out the applicant that appears to have good credentials, but actually can't read/write code worth a damn. Literally, people that would be confused when reading a simple for loop. I've heard there are a lot of them.
I wouldn't be too offended by the test. That type of thing is designed to weed out the applicant that appears to have good credentials, but actually can't read/write code worth a damn. Literally, people that would be confused when reading a simple for loop. I've heard there are a lot of them. If you want to waste a day, g…tag:www.techhui.com,2009-06-22:1702911:Comment:449422009-06-22T20:44:32.458ZKen Berkunhttp://www.techhui.com/profile/KenBerkun
If you want to waste a day, google "coding test job interview". Start with <a href="http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000781.html">http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000781.html</a> "Why Can't Programmers.. Program?"<br />
<br />
I am not advocating coding tests, but it seems they are not uncommon.<br />
<br />
Ken<br />
<br />
<cite>Roger Garrett said:…</cite>
If you want to waste a day, google "coding test job interview". Start with <a href="http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000781.html">http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000781.html</a> "Why Can't Programmers.. Program?"<br />
<br />
I am not advocating coding tests, but it seems they are not uncommon.<br />
<br />
Ken<br />
<br />
<cite>Roger Garrett said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.techhui.com/forum/topics/whats-a-programmer-for?page=1&commentId=1702911%3AComment%3A44939&x=1#1702911Comment44939"><div>Thank you, one and all, for your responses. It's good to know that this fellow doesn't represent the typical (well, at least the more professional) entrepreneur.<br/> <br/>
But another, somewhat related question:<br/>
<br/>
I also replied to another ad for a C++ programmer and went for an interview. They had me take a programming test, to test my skills in C++. Well, I've been a software engineer for thirty five years and this is the first time I ever had to take a test. Now, maybe if you're interviewing a person who is just out of college and has no actual real-world experience, you might want to find out if he's retained anything from the classes he's recently taken. But I would think that if the job candidate has been in the industry for an extended period of time (and for software engineering thirty five years covers nearly the entire time that the industry has even existed) then you should be more interested in the breadth of experience the person has had rather than whether he can find the typo in a section of code in one minute or less.</div>
</blockquote> Thank you, one and all, for y…tag:www.techhui.com,2009-06-22:1702911:Comment:449392009-06-22T20:38:18.937ZRoger Garretthttp://www.techhui.com/profile/RogerGarrett
Thank you, one and all, for your responses. It's good to know that this fellow doesn't represent the typical (well, at least the more professional) entrepreneur.<br />
<br />
But another, somewhat related question:<br />
<br />
I also replied to another ad for a C++ programmer and went for an interview. They had me take a programming test, to test my skills in C++. Well, I've been a software engineer for thirty five years and this is the first time I ever had to take a test. Now, maybe if you're interviewing a person…
Thank you, one and all, for your responses. It's good to know that this fellow doesn't represent the typical (well, at least the more professional) entrepreneur.<br />
<br />
But another, somewhat related question:<br />
<br />
I also replied to another ad for a C++ programmer and went for an interview. They had me take a programming test, to test my skills in C++. Well, I've been a software engineer for thirty five years and this is the first time I ever had to take a test. Now, maybe if you're interviewing a person who is just out of college and has no actual real-world experience, you might want to find out if he's retained anything from the classes he's recently taken. But I would think that if the job candidate has been in the industry for an extended period of time (and for software engineering thirty five years covers nearly the entire time that the industry has even existed) then you should be more interested in the breadth of experience the person has had rather than whether he can find the typo in a section of code in one minute or less. Hi Roger,
Your concerns are…tag:www.techhui.com,2009-06-22:1702911:Comment:449242009-06-22T19:04:19.303ZJ. David Beutelhttp://www.techhui.com/profile/JDavidBeutel
Hi Roger,<br />
<br />
Your concerns are reasonable, even if you're not working for equity. Your paycheck depends on the start-up's ability to succeed, or to get funding at least. But don't take the offer personally. Just forget about the stupid scheme.
Hi Roger,<br />
<br />
Your concerns are reasonable, even if you're not working for equity. Your paycheck depends on the start-up's ability to succeed, or to get funding at least. But don't take the offer personally. Just forget about the stupid scheme. Shawn:
Hm, re-reading my ori…tag:www.techhui.com,2009-06-22:1702911:Comment:449122009-06-22T08:50:20.722ZLaurence A. Leehttp://www.techhui.com/profile/LaurenceALee
Shawn:<br />
<br />
Hm, re-reading my original post, that should've read "if you're in a financial pinch", not "unless you're in a financial pinch". 'Guess that's what I get for hacking on Linux Kernel code 'til I'm bleary-eyed before dropping a response on Techhui. I totally agree, pass on the offers that have no money in it if you're in a financial pinch.<br />
<br />
Though, I do prefer meeting under an NDA, as it demonstrates that they're making an effort to properly protect their Trade Secrets. I've never…
Shawn:<br />
<br />
Hm, re-reading my original post, that should've read "if you're in a financial pinch", not "unless you're in a financial pinch". 'Guess that's what I get for hacking on Linux Kernel code 'til I'm bleary-eyed before dropping a response on Techhui. I totally agree, pass on the offers that have no money in it if you're in a financial pinch.<br />
<br />
Though, I do prefer meeting under an NDA, as it demonstrates that they're making an effort to properly protect their Trade Secrets. I've never encountered any equity-stake project that was willing to reveal customer lists or give up secrets of their Marketing Kung-Fu without an NDA; but then again, I've rarely been in a position to seriously entertain many of them, either. They almost always come off as wanting a "free" programmer. Ditto everyone -- the above c…tag:www.techhui.com,2009-06-22:1702911:Comment:448762009-06-22T01:29:29.764ZShawn Drosthttp://www.techhui.com/profile/ShawnDrost
Ditto everyone -- the above comments are all spot-on.<br />
<br />
Laurence: I'd be more interested in a partner offer that didn't come with an NDA from someone that brings something extraordinary to the table, like a signed contract from an anchor customer, or demonstrable expertise in design or marketing. Also, if I were in a "financial pinch", I'd be less likely to accept a project like this.
Ditto everyone -- the above comments are all spot-on.<br />
<br />
Laurence: I'd be more interested in a partner offer that didn't come with an NDA from someone that brings something extraordinary to the table, like a signed contract from an anchor customer, or demonstrable expertise in design or marketing. Also, if I were in a "financial pinch", I'd be less likely to accept a project like this.