STEM Education v. STEM Visas: conflict or complement? - TechHui2024-03-29T11:47:17Zhttp://www.techhui.com/forum/topics/stem-education-v-stem-visas-conflict-or-complement?groupUrl=techworkforcedevelopment&commentId=1702911%3AComment%3A115341&groupId=1702911%3AGroup%3A78741&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI agree, innovation and stabi…tag:www.techhui.com,2013-01-13:1702911:Comment:1150032013-01-13T06:51:51.062ZJ. David Beutelhttp://www.techhui.com/profile/JDavidBeutel
<p>I agree, innovation and stability are at odds, although I like both of them. I applaud your looking beyond the zero-sum game, for a win-win that will strengthen our tech sector.</p>
<p>I agree, innovation and stability are at odds, although I like both of them. I applaud your looking beyond the zero-sum game, for a win-win that will strengthen our tech sector.</p> I think you raise legitimate…tag:www.techhui.com,2013-01-13:1702911:Comment:1150022013-01-13T05:41:15.016ZJohn Robert Eganhttp://www.techhui.com/profile/JohnEgan
<p>I think you raise legitimate issues. There are corporations that treat workers like widgets, although I would say that the worst of these are the really big players (not coincidentally these are some of the same corporations engaging in exploitative visa pratices). For Hawaii I think we need to focus on supporting smaller enterprises and start ups. Unfortunately, the career stability issue is compounded with start ups - there is no guarantee they will succeed so there is no reasonable…</p>
<p>I think you raise legitimate issues. There are corporations that treat workers like widgets, although I would say that the worst of these are the really big players (not coincidentally these are some of the same corporations engaging in exploitative visa pratices). For Hawaii I think we need to focus on supporting smaller enterprises and start ups. Unfortunately, the career stability issue is compounded with start ups - there is no guarantee they will succeed so there is no reasonable expectation of stability in that milieu.</p>
<p>I don't want to sound overly pessimistic about our economic future, but I think we may have seen the end of the "30 years and a retire with a gold watch" days. The tech sector is quintessentially a disruptive force in the economy, for better and for worse. The "creative destruction" mode of innovation means job stability will be harder and harder to come by.</p>
<p>I do not think that is the end of the discussion but, like you, I think we need to figure out how to reward people who commit to careers in the tech sector over the long run.<br/> <br/> <cite>J. David Beutel said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.techhui.com/forum/topics/stem-education-v-stem-visas-conflict-or-complement?groupUrl=techworkforcedevelopment&commentId=1702911%3AComment%3A115341&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#1702911Comment115341"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I am in favor of more public investment in STEM education, of course, and I cannot object very much to STEM visas after going to Japan on a work visa myself. I too want a vibrant tech sector in the US, especially Hawaii. But, when I hear corporations complain that they cannot find the workers they need, there is one factor that they often fail to mention. These champions of the free market must realize that if they offered better jobs, they could find more workers. It is not just a matter of compensation, but stability and training.</p>
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<p>Workforce development sounds like a resource from the perspective of the corporation. But, these workers have to be intelligent, so we need to consider this from their perspective too. Outsourcing and treating workers as fungible commodities, to be employed on demand as a best fit of esoteric skills or requirements, may be good for the corporation, but it is bad for the workers. A couple of my coworkers have quit our industry because of this very situation, going back to school and getting graduate degrees for industries that are more stable.</p>
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</blockquote> I am in favor of more public…tag:www.techhui.com,2013-01-13:1702911:Comment:1153412013-01-13T00:32:46.269ZJ. David Beutelhttp://www.techhui.com/profile/JDavidBeutel
<p>I am in favor of more public investment in STEM education, of course, and I cannot object very much to STEM visas after going to Japan on a work visa myself. I too want a vibrant tech sector in the US, especially Hawaii. But, when I hear corporations complain that they cannot find the workers they need, there is one factor that they often fail to mention. These champions of the free market must realize that if they offered better jobs, they could find more workers. It is not just a…</p>
<p>I am in favor of more public investment in STEM education, of course, and I cannot object very much to STEM visas after going to Japan on a work visa myself. I too want a vibrant tech sector in the US, especially Hawaii. But, when I hear corporations complain that they cannot find the workers they need, there is one factor that they often fail to mention. These champions of the free market must realize that if they offered better jobs, they could find more workers. It is not just a matter of compensation, but stability and training.</p>
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<p>Workforce development sounds like a resource from the perspective of the corporation. But, these workers have to be intelligent, so we need to consider this from their perspective too. Outsourcing and treating workers as fungible commodities, to be employed on demand as a best fit of esoteric skills or requirements, may be good for the corporation, but it is bad for the workers. A couple of my coworkers have quit our industry because of this very situation, going back to school and getting graduate degrees for industries that are more stable.</p> I agree that both are needed.…tag:www.techhui.com,2013-01-12:1702911:Comment:1149942013-01-12T19:58:33.108ZDaniel Leuckhttp://www.techhui.com/profile/dleuck
<p>I agree that both are needed. We need to invest heavily in strong STEM education, especially K-12 where we are severely deficient, but we also need to take a more enlightened view of merit based immigration. As my favorite rag The Economist frequently argues, there is little debate among those who study the subject that allowing educated* and motivated people to immigrate contributes to economic health. US and Japanese politicians would do well to take note.</p>
<p><em>* Often just…</em></p>
<p>I agree that both are needed. We need to invest heavily in strong STEM education, especially K-12 where we are severely deficient, but we also need to take a more enlightened view of merit based immigration. As my favorite rag The Economist frequently argues, there is little debate among those who study the subject that allowing educated* and motivated people to immigrate contributes to economic health. US and Japanese politicians would do well to take note.</p>
<p><em>* Often just the motivated part is enough, but that is another debate for another website.</em></p> You are quite right that more…tag:www.techhui.com,2013-01-11:1702911:Comment:1152772013-01-11T06:32:45.064ZJohn Robert Eganhttp://www.techhui.com/profile/JohnEgan
<p>You are quite right that more STEM visas will not have any direct positive effect on STEM education, and also right that corporations, like consumers, will take more stuff at a lower price if offered. I also agree that better wages and security help young people choose career paths, up to a point (aptitude and opportunity each have a role, too). </p>
<p>However, the goal is to build the technology workforce now and for the future, and we will need to use both international talent and…</p>
<p>You are quite right that more STEM visas will not have any direct positive effect on STEM education, and also right that corporations, like consumers, will take more stuff at a lower price if offered. I also agree that better wages and security help young people choose career paths, up to a point (aptitude and opportunity each have a role, too). </p>
<p>However, the goal is to build the technology workforce now and for the future, and we will need to use both international talent and homegrown talent to do that. I'm suggesting a both/and option rather than an either/or option.</p>
<p>Thanks for you thoughts, I appreciate your joining in the discussion. I'm going to take a look at that article.<br/> <br/> <cite>J. David Beutel said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.techhui.com/forum/topics/stem-education-v-stem-visas-conflict-or-complement?groupUrl=techworkforcedevelopment&xg_source=activity#1702911Comment115133"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Increasing STEM education by increasing STEM visas sounds like the same kind of reasoning as reducing the deficit by lowering taxes. Corporations want more skills at lower wages. <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/magazine/skills-dont-pay-the-bills.html?hp&_r=0" target="_blank">This article</a> suggests that if they offered jobs with higher pay and more security, then more domestic workers would get a STEM education. But, those corporations can make higher profits in the short term by paying foreign workers less.</p>
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</blockquote> Increasing STEM education by…tag:www.techhui.com,2013-01-11:1702911:Comment:1151332013-01-11T04:10:30.373ZJ. David Beutelhttp://www.techhui.com/profile/JDavidBeutel
<p>Increasing STEM education by increasing STEM visas sounds like the same kind of reasoning as reducing the deficit by lowering taxes. Corporations want more skills at lower wages. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/magazine/skills-dont-pay-the-bills.html?hp&_r=0" target="_blank">This article</a> suggests that if they offered jobs with higher pay and more security, then more domestic workers would get a STEM education. But, those corporations can make higher profits in the short…</p>
<p>Increasing STEM education by increasing STEM visas sounds like the same kind of reasoning as reducing the deficit by lowering taxes. Corporations want more skills at lower wages. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/magazine/skills-dont-pay-the-bills.html?hp&_r=0" target="_blank">This article</a> suggests that if they offered jobs with higher pay and more security, then more domestic workers would get a STEM education. But, those corporations can make higher profits in the short term by paying foreign workers less.</p>