#1 Cost of Doing Business in Hawaii?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ken Berkun on August 21, 2009 at 9:06am

Just one post on this topic, then no more as it is a serious rat hole. There is no evidence that voucher systems work (check out Washington DC: failure so far) and it doesn't scale at all. In my opinion the public school system should be supported not undermined. Serious changes: yes. Destroyed by funneling funding somewhere else: no.



Daniel Leuck said:

Not at all. After 100 years of the current system, which has consistently sold the poor and middle class short, I think its time to try something new. Our state more than any other could use some healthy competition. Your tax dollars are going to pay for your neighbor's kid's education anyway. Why not let him vote with his dollar?

I realize this is a wildly unpopular idea in Hawaii so let me state right now that A) My opinions are my own and don't represent those of TechHui and B) If you disagree we can still be friends. Most of my friends disagree with me on a wide range of issues. :-)

Ken Berkun: That's a joke, right?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Gus Higuera on August 21, 2009 at 9:10am

Was just checking out a new unemployment rate chart and saw Hawaii is amongst the states with the lowest percentage? Is this correct?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/21/unemployment-the-worst-hi_...

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Daniel Leuck on August 21, 2009 at 9:57am

There has never been a statewide comprehensive implementation. It can be reasonably argued that dipping your toe in the pool with a few experimental schools does not provide any useful information. DC's 1,716 students in the voucher experiment aren't nearly enough to influence the culture of education. Having volunteered in local schools, I can say with certainty that we need the kind of major overhaul in the culture of education that only comes about when you fundamentally change people's motivations. We have some public educators who are very passionate about doing right by their students, but they are drowning in a morass of inefficient bureaucracy that does little to reward the positive actors. We know throwing more money at the current structure does not work. We have been doing this for 100 years. People get very emotional when you talk about public schools, but I believe its important to take a dispassionate look at what has happened and why.

Ken Berkun: Just one post on this topic, then no more as it is a serious rat hole. There is no evidence that voucher systems work (check out Washington DC: failure so far) and it doesn't scale at all. In my opinion the public school system should be supported not undermined. Serious changes: yes. Destroyed by funneling funding somewhere else: no.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Peter Kay on August 21, 2009 at 1:01pm

Ken, I'm not sure what data you base your "no evidence" claims on voucher systems. The DC project, though only 3 years old, yielded statistically significant, positive results. Of course it was killed by the status quo powers.

This is not a rat hole. It's an extremely important issue that must be debated with "fact-based discussions". The president said we should "let the science lead us to the right conclusion" on various issues. I agree.

If you expand the analysis to a global scale, school districts that employ free market-like dynamics dramatically outperform government-run monopolies.

Finally, just look in our backyard for the obvious evidence: most of Hawaii's private schools have a lower per-pupil cost than the public schools yet vastly outperform them in every area; any clear thinking parent that has toured these schools sees dramatic differences in the way they look, feel, and operate.

Vouchers have been vilified by those who want to maintain by the status quo and are threatened by the thought of competitive market forces. I can understand that and would probably feel the same way if I was in their shoes.

We have, right in front of our eyes, a cheaper system that works and a far more expensive system that has failed despite decades of attempted reform. Seems to me we have a model to follow.

We've had "serious change" made via the legislature time and again. The results speak for themselves.

I don't think it's possible to have any "serious change" unless we're willing to allow the customer to make the decision as to where to spend their money and send their child.

Ken Berkun said:

Just one post on this topic, then no more as it is a serious rat hole. There is no evidence that voucher systems work (check out Washington DC: failure so far) and it doesn't scale at all. In my opinion the public school system should be supported not undermined. Serious changes: yes. Destroyed by funneling funding somewhere else: no.



Daniel Leuck said:

Not at all. After 100 years of the current system, which has consistently sold the poor and middle class short, I think its time to try something new. Our state more than any other could use some healthy competition. Your tax dollars are going to pay for your neighbor's kid's education anyway. Why not let him vote with his dollar?

I realize this is a wildly unpopular idea in Hawaii so let me state right now that A) My opinions are my own and don't represent those of TechHui and B) If you disagree we can still be friends. Most of my friends disagree with me on a wide range of issues. :-)

Ken Berkun: That's a joke, right?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ken Berkun on August 21, 2009 at 1:08pm

Alright, open a separate topic for this discussion. But Peter, your facts are simply wrong. The DC experiment did not yield positive results. The cost per student at a private school is roughly 50% higher than a public school and the Cato institute is so completely slanted that none of their research is worth quoting.

I am done with this topic in this location. Notice that I am not in disagreement that something radical must be done with the public schools.


Peter Kay said:

Ken, I'm not sure what data you base your "no evidence" claims on voucher systems. The DC project, though only 3 years old, yielded statistically significant, positive results. Of course it was killed by the status quo powers.

This is not a rat hole. It's an extremely important issue that must be debated with "fact-based discussions". The president said we should "let the science lead us to the right conclusion" on various issues. I agree.

If you expand the analysis to a global scale, school districts that employ free market-like dynamics dramatically outperform government-run monopolies.

Finally, just look in our backyard for the obvious evidence: most of Hawaii's private schools have a lower per-pupil cost than the public schools yet vastly outperform them in every area; any clear thinking parent that has toured these schools sees dramatic differences in the way they look, feel, and operate.

Vouchers have been vilified by those who want to maintain by the status quo and are threatened by the thought of competitive market forces. I can understand that and would probably feel the same way if I was in their shoes.

We have, right in front of our eyes, a cheaper system that works and a far more expensive system that has failed despite decades of attempted reform. Seems to me we have a model to follow.

We've had "serious change" made via the legislature time and again. The results speak for themselves.

I don't think it's possible to have any "serious change" unless we're willing to allow the customer to make the decision as to where to spend their money and send their child.

Ken Berkun said:

Just one post on this topic, then no more as it is a serious rat hole. There is no evidence that voucher systems work (check out Washington DC: failure so far) and it doesn't scale at all. In my opinion the public school system should be supported not undermined. Serious changes: yes. Destroyed by funneling funding somewhere else: no.



Daniel Leuck said:

Not at all. After 100 years of the current system, which has consistently sold the poor and middle class short, I think its time to try something new. Our state more than any other could use some healthy competition. Your tax dollars are going to pay for your neighbor's kid's education anyway. Why not let him vote with his dollar?

I realize this is a wildly unpopular idea in Hawaii so let me state right now that A) My opinions are my own and don't represent those of TechHui and B) If you disagree we can still be friends. Most of my friends disagree with me on a wide range of issues. :-)

Ken Berkun: That's a joke, right?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Peter Kay on August 21, 2009 at 1:58pm

Ken, I'd love to see what sources you get your facts from. As of now, you've not been able to give any backup whatsoever. Re: Cato. There's no such thing as an unslanted anything and that's not the point. Lets debate facts and science, not the authors or points of view.

Ken Berkun said:

Alright, open a separate topic for this discussion. But Peter, your facts are simply wrong. The DC experiment did not yield positive results. The cost per student at a private school is roughly 50% higher than a public school and the Cato institute is so completely slanted that none of their research is worth quoting.

I am done with this topic in this location. Notice that I am not in disagreement that something radical must be done with the public schools.


Peter Kay said:

Ken, I'm not sure what data you base your "no evidence" claims on voucher systems. The DC project, though only 3 years old, yielded statistically significant, positive results. Of course it was killed by the status quo powers.

This is not a rat hole. It's an extremely important issue that must be debated with "fact-based discussions". The president said we should "let the science lead us to the right conclusion" on various issues. I agree.

If you expand the analysis to a global scale, school districts that employ free market-like dynamics dramatically outperform government-run monopolies.

Finally, just look in our backyard for the obvious evidence: most of Hawaii's private schools have a lower per-pupil cost than the public schools yet vastly outperform them in every area; any clear thinking parent that has toured these schools sees dramatic differences in the way they look, feel, and operate.

Vouchers have been vilified by those who want to maintain by the status quo and are threatened by the thought of competitive market forces. I can understand that and would probably feel the same way if I was in their shoes.

We have, right in front of our eyes, a cheaper system that works and a far more expensive system that has failed despite decades of attempted reform. Seems to me we have a model to follow.

We've had "serious change" made via the legislature time and again. The results speak for themselves.

I don't think it's possible to have any "serious change" unless we're willing to allow the customer to make the decision as to where to spend their money and send their child.

Ken Berkun said:

Just one post on this topic, then no more as it is a serious rat hole. There is no evidence that voucher systems work (check out Washington DC: failure so far) and it doesn't scale at all. In my opinion the public school system should be supported not undermined. Serious changes: yes. Destroyed by funneling funding somewhere else: no.



Daniel Leuck said:

Not at all. After 100 years of the current system, which has consistently sold the poor and middle class short, I think its time to try something new. Our state more than any other could use some healthy competition. Your tax dollars are going to pay for your neighbor's kid's education anyway. Why not let him vote with his dollar?

I realize this is a wildly unpopular idea in Hawaii so let me state right now that A) My opinions are my own and don't represent those of TechHui and B) If you disagree we can still be friends. Most of my friends disagree with me on a wide range of issues. :-)

Ken Berkun: That's a joke, right?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ken Berkun on August 21, 2009 at 2:59pm

I never stop do I? I was on the board of and I ran the budget for my daughter's private school in Seattle. It doesn't take much to run it up to $13K to $15K per student. I am sure it would be even higher here. Don't forget that tuition never covers the cost for private schools - they count on significant donations to cover the difference. I will state categorically that you can not run a private school for $3000 per student - true cost. Maybe if someone gives you a building and certainly if you already have an endowment. I know something about budgeting and this is based on real-life experience.

And finally let me add that the base reason for being against school vouchers is simply that you lose economies of scale. You've broken your budget in two pieces and that's poor administration. I am completely supportive of restructuring the DOE to be more efficient. I am completely supportive of firing everyone who is involved in current school administration. I just do not think that vouchers are a good solution to the problem.



Peter Kay said:

Ken, I'd love to see what sources you get your facts from. As of now, you've not been able to give any backup whatsoever. Re: Cato. There's no such thing as an unslanted anything and that's not the point. Lets debate facts and science, not the authors or points of view.
Ken Berkun said:

Alright, open a separate topic for this discussion. But Peter, your facts are simply wrong. The DC experiment did not yield positive results. The cost per student at a private school is roughly 50% higher than a public school and the Cato institute is so completely slanted that none of their research is worth quoting.

I am done with this topic in this location. Notice that I am not in disagreement that something radical must be done with the public schools.
Peter Kay said:

Ken, I'm not sure what data you base your "no evidence" claims on voucher systems. The DC project, though only 3 years old, yielded statistically significant, positive results. Of course it was killed by the status quo powers.

This is not a rat hole. It's an extremely important issue that must be debated with "fact-based discussions". The president said we should "let the science lead us to the right conclusion" on various issues. I agree.
If you expand the analysis to a global scale, school districts that employ free market-like dynamics dramatically outperform government-run monopolies.
Finally, just look in our backyard for the obvious evidence: most of Hawaii's private schools have a lower per-pupil cost than the public schools yet vastly outperform them in every area; any clear thinking parent that has toured these schools sees dramatic differences in the way they look, feel, and operate.

Vouchers have been vilified by those who want to maintain by the status quo and are threatened by the thought of competitive market forces. I can understand that and would probably feel the same way if I was in their shoes.

We have, right in front of our eyes, a cheaper system that works and a far more expensive system that has failed despite decades of attempted reform. Seems to me we have a model to follow.

We've had "serious change" made via the legislature time and again. The results speak for themselves.

I don't think it's possible to have any "serious change" unless we're willing to allow the customer to make the decision as to where to spend their money and send their child.

Ken Berkun said:

Just one post on this topic, then no more as it is a serious rat hole. There is no evidence that voucher systems work (check out Washington DC: failure so far) and it doesn't scale at all. In my opinion the public school system should be supported not undermined. Serious changes: yes. Destroyed by funneling funding somewhere else: no.



Daniel Leuck said:

Not at all. After 100 years of the current system, which has consistently sold the poor and middle class short, I think its time to try something new. Our state more than any other could use some healthy competition. Your tax dollars are going to pay for your neighbor's kid's education anyway. Why not let him vote with his dollar?

I realize this is a wildly unpopular idea in Hawaii so let me state right now that A) My opinions are my own and don't represent those of TechHui and B) If you disagree we can still be friends. Most of my friends disagree with me on a wide range of issues. :-)

Ken Berkun: That's a joke, right?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Wayne Karo on August 21, 2009 at 3:58pm

Great discussion so far. Let me summarize the cost areas so far. It would be nice to see some more people jump in and quantify these issues.

(See the Best Things about Doing Business in Hawaii? discussion for all the good points.)

1. Interminable waiting periods for permits
2. High taxes. Not significantly worse off than other states. Roughly comparable to San Francisco.
3. Regulatory processes that seem designed to suffocate rather than promote private enterprise. One company said outside of Act 221 fiasco the government has neither helped nor hindered
4. Layers of bureaucracy
5. Low wages. Common belief that salaries are 20% less, i.e. "price of paradise"
6. Quality of the legal system
7. Stability of government decisions in high value business matters
8. Education of law makers, i.e. lobbying, $20K for one company in 2009
9. Health insurance costs. Roughly comparable to San Francisco
10. Office rent. Roughly comparable to San Francisco
11. Infrastructure. Poor electricity, air conditioning, and internet connectivity infrastructure at the Manoa Innovation Center cost one company thousands. Internet connectivity to home office is slow and no upgrade option for another company.
12. Additional expense is time and travel for meetings on the mainland. Approximately $500 on average per trip and an extra day
13. Lack of local funding
14. Technology product requiring face to face sales. One company believes it is an insurmountable disadvantage due to geographic isolation.
15. Private education of children. About $10-15k/yr/child with after tax money, inhibits importing talented work force with children.
16. Poor public education system. Ultimately throttles growth
17. High housing costs. Inhibits importing talented work force.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Peter Kay on August 21, 2009 at 4:49pm

Ken,

Local DOE budget comes out to $15,000 per student. Good private school (my kids go to) is $10k/child. Punahou, one of the best in the country, is about $20k/child.

I agree there's an economy of scale but private school performance indicates that's not the key issue influencing quality of education.

I never said "vouchers" but the fact bear out that free market school systems (were individuals make the choice as to what school to attend) do better.

(Kudos to Wayne for moderation effort)

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ken Berkun on August 21, 2009 at 4:54pm

Your private school is $10K because it also engages in various fund raising activities and perhaps even has an endowment. If not, let me know I'm signing up my kid.


Peter Kay said:

Ken,

Local DOE budget comes out to $15,000 per student. Good private school (my kids go to) is $10k/child. Punahou, one of the best in the country, is about $20k/child.

I agree there's an economy of scale but private school performance indicates that's not the key issue influencing quality of education.

I never said "vouchers" but the fact bear out that free market school systems (were individuals make the choice as to what school to attend) do better.

(Kudos to Wayne for moderation effort)

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Peter Kay on August 21, 2009 at 6:39pm

Sign up your kid. Do they have a carnival perhaps? Sure. Do they have voluntary funds (e.g. for a new building)? sure. No more or less than any public school's bake sale. But $10k is "all" you have to pay out of your pocket for a top-notch education.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by John on August 21, 2009 at 7:17pm

Is there any interest in doing home schooling? Given that this is a technology community and given the tremendous advances being made in on-line education, it would seem home schooling would be a promising approach to reduce the costs and shortcomings of the local public educational system.

▶ Reply to This

▶ Reply to This

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• Next ›
• Page